Rates Discussion

[rjk83]

However, maybe my explanation of the server forcing rates may have helped that issue.

Hey Khaotik, for clarification, client side rates don't matter is what you are saying since the server enforces rates? And, is this on all servers? and, therefor it is pointless for admins to chase everyone down and "force" them to change their rates?

Sorry, just seems like a lot of these issues have come through lately (miscommunication / expectation re: rates issues) and if the servers actually do force rates, then just want to clarify that it's pointless for the admin to force rate changes and/or the NU gods can exempt it from the rules and probably even get rid of the !rates command for all players to avoid bitching?

[khaotik]

Correct.
No matter what your client cvars are set to, if the server has it set to a minimum and maximum ( or true and false, boolean)
Your Cleint will Replicate and Obey the server Cvars.
Just like sv_cheats, Rates are enfoced the same way.
If you go into server.cfg and set
sv_minrate
sv_maxrate
sv_mincmdrate
sv_maxcmdrate
sv_minupdaterate
sv_maxupdaterate
YOur client will replicate such.
However, the !rate plugin reads the Clients "personal" cvars, not replicated ones.
If sv_minrate is 900, Then a rate of 200 is impossible; since the game will say in your console, if you type in rate


Rate = 900
*Note, The true value is 200, but the server has temporarily restricted it to 900.

meaning that 'enforicing rates' is pointless.
Unless of course, you have no idea on how to set Server side enforced-rates.

N00bsalad abolished the !rate command due to this same issue cropping up with new admins.



Hey Khaotik, for clarification, client side rates don't matter is what you are saying since the server enforces rates? And, is this on all servers? and, therefor it is pointless for admins to chase everyone down and "force" them to change their rates?

Sorry, just seems like a lot of these issues have come through lately (miscommunication / expectation re: rates issues) and if the servers actually do force rates, then just want to clarify that it's pointless for the admin to force rate changes and/or the NU gods can exempt it from the rules and probably even get rid of the !rates command for all players to avoid bitching?

[siosios]

ive been saying the same thing for over a year now and still it takes someone else for people to listen.........

[SmurfSniper]

if the rates are forced.... then why exactly can someone lagging with incorrect rates change to correct rates and it fixes the lag???? just curious

[DoT]

if the rates are forced.... then why exactly can someone lagging with incorrect rates change to correct rates and it fixes the lag???? just curious

its all in your head.

[sean7488]

its all in your head.

but it's not cause other people see it to on the same players.

[badfish]

but it's not cause other people see it to on the same players.

but it is cause the other people are just as mindfucked as the rest
....baddie

[DoT]

lol.

people lag just as much when they change their rates.

you just look at the !rate and see that it's fixed and think they are not lagging as bad.

stop bitching...and blame the update for the lag.

[khaotik]

YOu want to see Lagg, but NO lag? go intoa server, type cl_smooth 0
Everyone will stat jerking arund like puppets due to the engine no smoothing eye predictions.

What you are seeing as 'lag' is Latency 'lag'
Lower the smoothtime, the less the game smooths eye prediction.
ANd yes, it really is in you head.
Example-> I can enter your server and have rates
Rate0 Cl_cmdrate 0
Cll_updaterate 0
Cl_interp 0....... Without using any odd characters, like - + or _
But I wont be lagging. Which is impossible, since no rates= No client connected.



Another thing to note.
THe NEW orangebox update, makes the old !rate command pointless.
Since interp for servers is NO LONGER THE SAME AS IT WAS BEFORE.


if the rates are forced.... then why exactly can someone lagging with incorrect rates change to correct rates and it fixes the lag???? just curious

[Jackd]

Thank you khaotik for explaining this again and even in a language that I can understand.

@ Office admins - I posted a copy of the rates conversation in the admins section. Please read it and signed that you did.

[BioHaZarD69]

I use cl_smooth 0 i have it set in my config file and i dont get the puppets...where are my freakin puppets dammit! lol j/k i do have it set in my config to 0 but thats how i have my game setup and i hardly ever see the jerkiness...accept when i get the occasional latency lag spikes. good info Khaotik. thanks. LaterZ

[khaotik]

Set it to 1, and set smoothtime .5 ( unless its limited, go for max)
You'll notice that its really different from the "smooth" play you see now =D

[SmurfSniper]

see... now Im sorry but this is definately not in my head... my rates was messed up just the other day and everytime I shot at someone I would see bad lag, SO! I checked my rates and they was wrong so I changed them and I didnt lag anymore... so no offense but... its definately not in my head. now Im not saying the constant bitching about rates is necessary, I honestly think people bitch way to much about them. The only reason I have ever said anything about rates is when I see a person lag and their rates are wrong, and I dont tell them to fix them I just suggest that it may help with their lag issue. just to help them out.

[khaotik]

SmurfSniper, think of it this way.
The server is forcing Your cleint to send data, No matter what the client is doing.
This bascially is like so-->
Server says, send me 50 pkt. Your client says, No, here is 40PKT.
The server says Fine then, I will Take 50 PKT regardless.

Due to This, You arrent sending Your command packets to the server, you are sending your command packets +filler packets to the server.
meaning, You harm yourself with bad registry.
But everyone can hit you just fine.

Read this excerpt.

See SourceSDK discussion at valve for more info on interp and data.
Skip the coded section for the highlighted Pertinent point.


Lets assume a player has a network latency of 150 milliseconds and starts to move forward. The information that the +FORWARD key is pressed is stored in a user command and send to the server. There the user command is processed by the movement code and the player's character is moved forward in the game world. This world state change is transmitted to all clients with the next snapshot update. So the player would see his own change of movement with a 150 milliseconds delay after he started walking. This delay applies to all players actions like movement, shooting weapons, etc. and becomes worse with higher latencies.
A delay between player input and corresponding visual feedback creates a strange, unnatural feeling and makes it hard to move or aim precisely. Client-side input prediction (cl_predict 1) is a way to remove this delay and let the player's actions feel more instant. Instead of waiting for the server to update your own position, the local client just predicts the results of its own user commands. Therefore, the client runs exactly the same code and rules the server will use to process the user commands. After the prediction is finished, the local player will move instantly to the new location while the server still sees him at the old place.
After 150 milliseconds, the client will receive the server snapshot that contains the changes based on the user command he predicted earlier. Then the client compares the server position with his predicted position. If they are different, a prediction error has occurred. This indicates that the client didn't have the correct information about other entities and the environment when it processed the user command. Then the client has to correct its own position, since the server has final authority over client-side prediction. If cl_showerror 1 is turned on, clients can see when prediction errors happen. Prediction error correction can be quite noticeable and may cause the client's view to jump erratically. By gradually correcting this error over a short amount of time (cl_smoothtime), errors can be smoothly corrected. Prediction error smoothing can be turned off with cl_smooth 0.
Predicting an object's behavior only works if the clients knows the same rules and state of the object as the server. That's usually not the case since the server knows more internal information about objects than the clients do. Clients see only a small part of the world and just get enough information to render objects. Therefore, prediction works only for your own player, and the weapons controlled by you. Proper prediction of other players or interactive objects is not possible on the client at this point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invalid rates hurt Only the client, not any other player, End of story.(as stated in the except)Since the server will take by force what you do not.
So, admins holding cleint hostage for invalid rates is bullshit.
Thank you.


The only reason I have ever said anything about rates is when I see a person lag and their rates are wrong, and I dont tell them to fix them I just suggest that it may help with their lag issue. just to help them out.

[siosios]

the above is true to the extent that its sickening to see how many people we have that dont know the game.

[SmurfSniper]

I know all about what your saying... I think I am being misunderstood or I'm not very clear.. I agree rates should not be enforced the way people do. Why I'm saying is if someone is seeing lag on their end helping them set the correct rates will help their lag. My lag I had wasn't seen by people in the server. It was seen by me... now I'm not saying we be rate nazis about it I'm saying if someone's seeing lag or choke thiscould still be a possible solution

[badfish]

yea but this thread was made so people understand punishing people in the server for bad rates is not acceptable....being a nice person is one thing taking someones game play is unacceptable.
.....baddie

[khaotik]

Setting appropriate rates per server will help you mesh better with the server .
Rates shouldnt be enforced,only encouraged to use correct rates for optimal registry, Against other players.

Bad rates have no factor on you being hit, but rather, you hitting other players.

[SmurfSniper]

yea but this thread was made so people understand punishing people in the server for bad rates is not acceptable....being a nice person is one thing taking someones game play is unacceptable.
.....baddie
I definately agree with that badfish.



Setting appropriate rates per server will help you mesh better with the server .

lol thanks khaotik, your better with words than I am. This is what I was trying to say in the first place....


Bad rates have no factor on you being hit, but rather, you hitting other players.

Ive tried to explain this to regs that bitch in the server about rates before and its like talking to a wall....

[khaotik]

Indeed.
For some reason i have no idea, someone thinks they know something when they dont know anything at all.
Very annoying.

[siosios]

annoyed!

[DoT]

so cock slapping the rate nazi's is okay then?

because i'd love to shove my balls in their uneducated mouths.

[Jackd]

Dot,

I have a post in the admin chat section (that you can't see anymore) that the admins are not supposed to bother anymore with the rates plus Sio is removing all the rates plugins.

If their are still issues out there let me know.

Thanks.


so cock slapping the rate nazi's is okay then?

because i'd love to shove my balls in their uneducated mouths.

[household 6]

Ok, maybe I am out of line, but can we please close this thread? The admins have been told to not do anything about rates, and that is that. Some of us were just doing what we were told to do. But it seems there is still bashing. ??? This has gotten out of hand. (Just my opinion)

House

[Kaley Fan]

Lol i tried to read what khatoik wrote.... i was lost on the first line :P

[DoT]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/InBeforeTheLock.gif